gOD, ( You all knew I was going to do it)

First topic message reminder :

Prove your god is real.
Good luck... (you're going to need it)

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

Winnar

I think there is a possibility of higher etheral beings but not one entirely powerful omnipotent one.


(Or else wouldn't he eradicate pain and suffering? /shrug)

Either way we can't judge until we die.

Or you know if their is a God he likes messing with people that's why he made Earth...wouldn't that just suck.

FSM.

Well I don't care what anybody says.
God is real. Deny him? (Go ahead)
He forgives whenever you ask.
You want proof Jesus lived?! Alrighty then.
There is proof! Many people disliked
Jesus when he lived. These people
dispised him so much, they wrote
about him! They made scrolls. Full
of what Jesus did. I respect other religions
and Atheist too. I much rather you be honest
than be a hypocrite and lie about your faith.
In the end we will see who was faithful
and who wasn't. (Good Luck!)

VioletVenom wrote:I think there is a possibility of higher etheral beings but not one entirely powerful omnipotent one.


(Or else wouldn't he eradicate pain and suffering? /shrug)

Either way we can't judge until we die.

Well we bring on pain and suffering
ourselves. God doesnt make a war or
shoot a gun. A human does. We
are responsible for what is happening

Spishnittlestick wrote:

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

haha....Marilyn Manson.
Of course the guy would say that!
But in case you didn't know
God doesn't try to rule you.
He does the complete opposite.
He let's you make good and bad choices.
Do you honestly think if God were to
rule over you he would let you say what it
is you were saying? (No, of course not.)

Hi, zombie, I think it's great that you have all this input, but let's try to avoid too many posts in a row.

I'd appreciate it.

Yall fucked up... Nice job of claiming evidence and shit... but no presentation of evidence. Just claims and other bullshit lies

What evidence do you cite fuzzy?

Jesus was supposedly a zombie, now they're portrayed as satanic/evil. Coincidence? I think not.

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

haha....Marilyn Manson.
Of course the guy would say that!
But in case you didn't know
God doesn't try to rule you.
He does the complete opposite.
He let's you make good and bad choices.
Do you honestly think if God were to
rule over you he would let you say what it
is you were saying? (No, of course not.)

Marilyn Manson is one of the most enlightened, most brilliant people on the planet. Watch some of his interviews. He is calm and reposed, he is polite and compassionate. His thoughts are well-put and his misanthropic view of the world helps him expose that which most are oblivious to.

I don't even let "God" poison my thoughts. I'm not wasting my time worshipping a symbol, an icon ... a deception.

I liked the whole Christianity bit for a while, until I realized I didn't need a God to succeed. God was holding me back. Inhibiting my creativity, clouding my judgments ... justifying my wrongdoings.

"Gods will fall before I let you disappear inside this syndrome."

You are not God's property, you are free. Live as if you are free, live without fear of Hell. Live a positive life in which you find true happiness, not the fabricated facade placed in front of your eyes through stained glass windows. At the conclusion of your life, you will accept your end, living freely without regret, and then you will contribute to the soil from which you came, becoming one with our Earth until its ultimate extinction. Nothing is forever.

Once again though this debate is completely pointless because their is no current way of proving God exists or not because nobody has died and thus nobody can confirm anything.

Yall can stab me in the name of god... make the christfags look bad and I can finally catch up on sleep that I've been lacking for the past couple... years? lmao

Oh and overzealous people on both sides are annoying. Taking things to the extreme is always dangerous.

unless you have a seatbelt... then you won't get tickets from fuckheads

fuzzy wrote:Yall fucked up... Nice job of claiming evidence and shit... but no presentation of evidence. Just claims and other bullshit lies

Google it.
(plain and simple)

Spishnittlestick wrote:

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

haha....Marilyn Manson.
Of course the guy would say that!
But in case you didn't know
God doesn't try to rule you.
He does the complete opposite.
He let's you make good and bad choices.
Do you honestly think if God were to
rule over you he would let you say what it
is you were saying? (No, of course not.)

Marilyn Manson is one of the most enlightened, most brilliant people on the planet. Watch some of his interviews. He is calm and reposed, he is polite and compassionate. His thoughts are well-put and his misanthropic view of the world helps him expose that which most are oblivious to.

I don't even let "God" poison my thoughts. I'm not wasting my time worshipping a symbol, an icon ... a deception.

I liked the whole Christianity bit for a while, until I realized I didn't need a God to succeed. God was holding me back. Inhibiting my creativity, clouding my judgments ... justifying my wrongdoings.

"Gods will fall before I let you disappear inside this syndrome."

You are not God's property, you are free. Live as if you are free, live without fear of Hell. Live a positive life in which you find true happiness, not the fabricated facade placed in front of your eyes through stained glass windows. At the conclusion of your life, you will accept your end, living freely without regret, and then you will contribute to the soil from which you came, becoming one with our Earth until its ultimate extinction. Nothing is forever.

Hhahahahaha......Well I have seen a interview
actually! And he is calm and very respectful.
But may I ask if you have gone or seen any of
his concerts? ha! not the marilyn on T.V.
you call ripping a bible up in pieces
"polite". (Guess not)
Oh, and by the way i said it before,
God let's you do watever you please.
You can eat grass if you want (IDK)
He never stops you, and definitly doesnt
take away any freedom.
Let me just say, if you think dying is eternal.
than you too, are sadly mistaken.
There's hell for sinners and heaven
for those who live for Christ.
I hope you make a good choice.

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

haha....Marilyn Manson.
Of course the guy would say that!
But in case you didn't know
God doesn't try to rule you.
He does the complete opposite.
He let's you make good and bad choices.
Do you honestly think if God were to
rule over you he would let you say what it
is you were saying? (No, of course not.)

Marilyn Manson is one of the most enlightened, most brilliant people on the planet. Watch some of his interviews. He is calm and reposed, he is polite and compassionate. His thoughts are well-put and his misanthropic view of the world helps him expose that which most are oblivious to.

I don't even let "God" poison my thoughts. I'm not wasting my time worshipping a symbol, an icon ... a deception.

I liked the whole Christianity bit for a while, until I realized I didn't need a God to succeed. God was holding me back. Inhibiting my creativity, clouding my judgments ... justifying my wrongdoings.

"Gods will fall before I let you disappear inside this syndrome."

You are not God's property, you are free. Live as if you are free, live without fear of Hell. Live a positive life in which you find true happiness, not the fabricated facade placed in front of your eyes through stained glass windows. At the conclusion of your life, you will accept your end, living freely without regret, and then you will contribute to the soil from which you came, becoming one with our Earth until its ultimate extinction. Nothing is forever.

Hhahahahaha......Well I have seen a interview
actually! And he is calm and very respectful.
But may I ask if you have gone or seen any of
his concerts? ha! not the marilyn on T.V.
you call ripping a bible up in pieces
"polite". (Guess not)
Oh, and by the way i said it before,
God let's you do watever you please.
You can eat grass if you want (IDK)
He never stops you, and definitly doesnt
take away any freedom.
Let me just say, if you think dying is eternal.
than you too, are sadly mistaken.
There's hell for sinners and heaven
for those who live for Christ.
I hope you make a good choice.

You believe that there's a hell for sinners.

I'm rather certain that there's not.

Besides, what good is it to simply act well because of fear of punishment? Or hoping for reward? My actions are based on true morality :p

It reminds me of a theme in Fight Club. "If you could be God's worst enemy or nothing, which would you choose?"; "Which is worse: Hell or nothing?"

My idea of "Heaven" certainly doesn't compare with a never-ending imprisonment with a God that demands constant praise and worship.

Watch Zeitgeist xD www.zeitgeistmovie.com Just watch the first 15 minutes or so, unless you would also like to find out that our government was fully aware of 9/11 before it happened, or that the rich elite are taking steps in ruling your life.

Or better yet, read The Selfish Gene or The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Those two books have done a very fine job of disproving God, the Selfish Gene doing so biologically, and the God Delusion doing so generally.

How familiar are you with the Bible, anyway? It's not the type of book I would lend to my proverbial children (I'm not procreating, mind you.) Most Christians (I'm not sure if you belong in this group or not) are considered "cherry pickers" when it comes to the Bible. They take the good stuff, but tend to ignore the genocides, infanticides, murders, raping, pillaging ... all done in the name of God.

More people have been killed or maimed by religion, or by acts justified by religion, than have been "saved," (and I mean literally saved, not that Christened "born again" nonsense, I mean "kept safe or rescued from harm or danger. That's undeniable.)

Spishnittlestick wrote:

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

kissthezombie wrote:

Spishnittlestick wrote:

Donald Williams wrote:

Cjanz wrote:

YourBlueFever wrote:Who gives a shit whether God is real or not?

There are plenty of human theories that people have been using as excuses since the beginning of human opinion to cause war and turmoil.

Human beings are selfish. Perhaps this is because we only have knowledge of ever living one life. Perhaps this is because as far as our memory goes back, we can only recall our own experiences and recall the faults and accomplishments we make as the one person we've been our whole lives. We only experience loss, pain, acceptance, joy, glory, power through our own eyes. So, we live for ourselves and our own existence.

I think that God, or whatever is out there. I think I may also have taken millions of years to form through evolution. Or maybe someone did just pull out a rib of Adam and call Eve woman and through lots of inbreeding and mutations caused me?

I'm not a scientist. I believe that there is too much out there for scientists to ever know exactly what happened. I don't think it matters. I know that I'm selfish. I know that I'm human. I live for myself. That doesn't mean I try to be mean to others or put others at fault. Maybe I'd even sacrafice my life for someone else's, but it's in the decision of only MY mind, and no one else's. In consideration that I've only ever woken up to see my own face in the mirror and no one else's yet, I'm going to live my life. If there's something else out there, well, that'd be just wonderful.

Do I pray to God? Yes. Do I have doubts? Yes. Does Heaven exist? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe something totally out of spectrum, that the selfish human mind can not even imagine in such terms. I don't know.

Your outlook is kind of a mixture retaining elements from the non-religious and religious alike. It's refreshing that someone who chooses to believe in God is not afraid to defend their position in a respectful manner.

Though, unlike you, I am an atheist, the most important thing to remember (as you said) is that we're all living for ourselves. That belief comes before any other, and should be paramount to any gesture emulated by the church or other institutions.

Many churches would be angry to hear that life is for the individual, many stand beside the fact that life should be for the will of god. I kind of hit a wall on that issue with a pastor of mine one time..

Oh, I know.

I hate hearing the following lines:

"If God wills it ... "

"Everything happens for a reason ... "

"I guess it was meant to be this way."

People are so far removed from their own lives ... I live for me, and I refuse to let any deity rule my life. I'm a human being, I was certainly not meant to be governed by a non-existent being. Marilyn Manson covered with his line "I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist." I am free, and I make these choices in my life for me, and for humanity. Not out of fear for Hell, not out of hope for being rewarded, but because I truly care about making a difference in my life and the lives of others.

I asked a devout Christian (And one of my best and brightest friends) if he could agree with me that there was no such thing as "Utopia." Of course, he did. Then I politely asked what the idea of Heaven was, because it certainly sounds like "Utopia" to me. He argued that his interpretation was just life in the garden before the consumption of the apple. Before sin.

Because, of course, knowledge is sin. [sarcasm]

I kept that part to myself, though.

My friend Ross was speaking to me about the subject. This guy was the biggest part in helping me realize that I truly was an atheist at heart, haha. He and I have regular discussions because he is truly brilliant. He just said something like [paraphrasing] "I don't understand how someone could claim inferiority for not only a lifetime, but an everlasting afterlife, to a selfish God, forever praising him ... and call it 'Heaven.' That's surely closer to my idea of Hell."

haha....Marilyn Manson.
Of course the guy would say that!
But in case you didn't know
God doesn't try to rule you.
He does the complete opposite.
He let's you make good and bad choices.
Do you honestly think if God were to
rule over you he would let you say what it
is you were saying? (No, of course not.)

Marilyn Manson is one of the most enlightened, most brilliant people on the planet. Watch some of his interviews. He is calm and reposed, he is polite and compassionate. His thoughts are well-put and his misanthropic view of the world helps him expose that which most are oblivious to.

I don't even let "God" poison my thoughts. I'm not wasting my time worshipping a symbol, an icon ... a deception.

I liked the whole Christianity bit for a while, until I realized I didn't need a God to succeed. God was holding me back. Inhibiting my creativity, clouding my judgments ... justifying my wrongdoings.

"Gods will fall before I let you disappear inside this syndrome."

You are not God's property, you are free. Live as if you are free, live without fear of Hell. Live a positive life in which you find true happiness, not the fabricated facade placed in front of your eyes through stained glass windows. At the conclusion of your life, you will accept your end, living freely without regret, and then you will contribute to the soil from which you came, becoming one with our Earth until its ultimate extinction. Nothing is forever.

Hhahahahaha......Well I have seen a interview
actually! And he is calm and very respectful.
But may I ask if you have gone or seen any of
his concerts? ha! not the marilyn on T.V.
you call ripping a bible up in pieces
"polite". (Guess not)
Oh, and by the way i said it before,
God let's you do watever you please.
You can eat grass if you want (IDK)
He never stops you, and definitly doesnt
take away any freedom.
Let me just say, if you think dying is eternal.
than you too, are sadly mistaken.
There's hell for sinners and heaven
for those who live for Christ.
I hope you make a good choice.

You believe that there's a hell for sinners.

I'm rather certain that there's not.

Besides, what good is it to simply act well because of fear of punishment? Or hoping for reward? My actions are based on true morality :p

It reminds me of a theme in Fight Club. "If you could be God's worst enemy or nothing, which would you choose?"; "Which is worse: Hell or nothing?"

My idea of "Heaven" certainly doesn't compare with a never-ending imprisonment with a God that demands constant praise and worship.

Watch Zeitgeist xD www.zeitgeistmovie.com Just watch the first 15 minutes or so, unless you would also like to find out that our government was fully aware of 9/11 before it happened, or that the rich elite are taking steps in ruling your life.

Or better yet, read The Selfish Gene or The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Those two books have done a very fine job of disproving God, the Selfish Gene doing so biologically, and the God Delusion doing so generally.

How familiar are you with the Bible, anyway? It's not the type of book I would lend to my proverbial children (I'm not procreating, mind you.) Most Christians (I'm not sure if you belong in this group or not) are considered "cherry pickers" when it comes to the Bible. They take the good stuff, but tend to ignore the genocides, infanticides, murders, raping, pillaging ... all done in the name of God.

More people have been killed or maimed by religion, or by acts justified by religion, than have been "saved," (and I mean literally saved, not that Christened "born again" nonsense, I mean "kept safe or rescued from harm or danger. That's undeniable.)

hmm....you take so much time
critisizing the bible. May i ask if
you (yourself) have sat down to read it?
rather than just basing your knowledge
on what "people" say. I have read the bible.
and i read all of those "bad" things that are
apperently not talked about. but in case you
STILL HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT.
HUMANS DO THE SINS!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT GOD!!!! God doesnt shoot a gun.
God certaintly doesn't rape anyone.
God doesn't start a war. God doesn't drown a baby.
God doesn't pollute the world. God doesn't send a prisoner
to jail. God doesn't do ANY of that.
Humans (me, you, and everyone else)
Do things that are immoral. NOT GOD.
and if you want to see religion as something
that will hold back this precious freedom you love,
then again you are mistaken. I don't know about you
but I want to live in heaven forever.
I want to be happy forever. I want to
get to meet God and thank him for everything he has
done for me. I don't want to go to hell though!
I don't want to live in eternal darkness
Because in hell, you are lost. The demons
become who you fear in hell. There are so many
horrible things in hell that you will have to go through.
And the worst parrt is, you can't ask for
help. Because in hell there is no God.
Its almost like not knowing he ever existed.
...and i don't know what kind of
religions you know that live in fear.
I have never in my life heard of that
(Come to think of it, the only person i have
ever heard say that was Marilyn Manson)
I am a Catholic and I have never heard of that.
perhaps you are mistaken and are assuming
this based on what YOU have ONLY seen.
I mean, im pretty sure you haven't seen ALL
the christians, catholics, etc. in the world.

Of course I've read the bible. My grandparents were very religious. I've been to church school, church, etc. And I've been bored in hotel rooms. I read it just like any other piece of fiction, and while some of it is a nice story, people go overboard (Twilight obsession times a thousand)

Have you ever considered that maybe God can't sin because he doesn't exist?

You can't scare with me with Hell, and you can't tempt me with Heaven. Your concept of Heaven is far from my concept of "perfect," and your concept of Hell is mild and insignificant. I live a moral life, so would a benevolent God, provided He exists, deny me access into this so-called Heaven simply for doubting his existence? I'm not paying a deity lip service "just in case, as undeniably, many Christians do.

I don't need to see every Catholic, just as you needn't see every atheist. It's not the people that bother me, it's the brainwashed effect and the copy/paste answers. I've argued these responses countless times, most usually using scientific evidence (If you go back far enough in this thread, you'll see a lot of it.)

Keep in mind that I'm not condemning you. I don't agree with your beliefs, but I don't think you're a bad person. These debates can get heated, I know, so don't take it personally, and don't think that I don't like you. I love to see someone rise vehemently to defend a point, but just make sure you consider things that your religion wouldn't want you to consider. Think outside the box I've read the bible, so maybe you should read a piece of atheistic philosophy (I'm thinking The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, or even The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins :p )

Well you said you read the bible but,
did it do you any good, if you did it
with a careless mind. Ex: If i go
to church because I "have to"
what good does it do? None at all.
Rather than going to church because I want to.
And the only reason people obsess about the bible,
is because, people ask for proof, well there it is.
Right there. Then people ask that God present himself.
Well just think about how FAKE this world would be if
we HAD to SEE God and then after believe. That doesn't sound very faithful
to me. That's why religion isn't really about beliefs (in my human opinion)
It's more about having faith, and believing it without the
necessity of having to see God. And that's what makes
you a good catholic, christian, lutheran, methodist,
baptist, etc. You can know all the bible stories
in the bible. You can even memorise scripture.
But if you don't have faith, it counts for NOTHING.
And heaven is real. And unfortunately so is hell.
And if you don't care for any of them. Than I hope
you have some other theory to the after life because
being put in a dark hole in a coffin sounds really
horrible. And heaven isn't a "reward". God doesn't
give you a snack after you've been a"good boy"
Heaven is where you live for eternity. If you choose
to follow Christ. You could say "Ah, who is he, he hasn't done
anything for me." Nope! Wrong again. He got whipped
beaten, spit at , humilated, basckstabbed, and nail to a cross
all for you, me and everyone else. I don't know about you
but anybody who does that for me, deserves my
friendship, love, respect, and most importantly, my
faith. And to say it's all fiction, seems like just
about the most horriblist thing to say. And there is absolutely
no way I would ever compare the bible with twilight, though I am a huge
fan. Unlike the bible twilight is truly fiction. The bible, not so much.
As for me knowing more about atheist. Well my teacher was actually
atheist. But he was very cool. And he admitted that Jesus was a
great man, he also went to church, he listened to what I had
to say, and I listened to his theories. In the end, he was a very
awesome guy. But you ask me to try out and
ge to know where you are coming from. But how about
you try my beliefs. You have nothing to lose.
But I do. I know that by giving in to something else
won't do me any good. Trust me, I tried
living life without God.And let me just say I was lost.
nothing made sense and I was stuck and lonely.

kissthezombie wrote:Well you said you read the bible but,
did it do you any good, if you did it
with a careless mind. Ex: If i go
to church because I "have to"
what good does it do? None at all.
Rather than going to church because I want to.
And the only reason people obsess about the bible,
is because, people ask for proof, well there it is.
Right there. Then people ask that God present himself.
Well just think about how FAKE this world would be if
we HAD to SEE God and then after believe. That doesn't sound very faithful
to me. That's why religion isn't really about beliefs (in my human opinion)
It's more about having faith, and believing it without the
necessity of having to see God. And that's what makes
you a good catholic, christian, lutheran, methodist,
baptist, etc. You can know all the bible stories
in the bible. You can even memorise scripture.
But if you don't have faith, it counts for NOTHING.
And heaven is real. And unfortunately so is hell.
And if you don't care for any of them. Than I hope
you have some other theory to the after life because
being put in a dark hole in a coffin sounds really
horrible. And heaven isn't a "reward". God doesn't
give you a snack after you've been a"good boy"
Heaven is where you live for eternity. If you choose
to follow Christ. You could say "Ah, who is he, he hasn't done
anything for me." Nope! Wrong again. He got whipped
beaten, spit at , humilated, basckstabbed, and nail to a cross
all for you, me and everyone else. I don't know about you
but anybody who does that for me, deserves my
friendship, love, respect, and most importantly, my
faith. And to say it's all fiction, seems like just
about the most horriblist thing to say. And there is absolutely
no way I would ever compare the bible with twilight, though I am a huge
fan. Unlike the bible twilight is truly fiction. The bible, not so much.
As for me knowing more about atheist. Well my teacher was actually
atheist. But he was very cool. And he admitted that Jesus was a
great man, he also went to church, he listened to what I had
to say, and I listened to his theories. In the end, he was a very
awesome guy. But you ask me to try out and
ge to know where you are coming from. But how about
you try my beliefs. You have nothing to lose.
But I do. I know that by giving in to something else
won't do me any good. Trust me, I tried
living life without God.And let me just say I was lost.
nothing made sense and I was stuck and lonely.

Do you think that most atheists haven't attended church, read the bible, or TRIED being Christian? Some people just don't see things the same way. Imposing opinions and making opposing beliefs/perspectives clash is always going to create dispute. The problem I find with most Christians is that they're constantly demanding non-believers to see it their way, but just like you see no logic in atheism, they see no logic in christianity. I think you're right when you say that Christianity and faith are things that have to be genuine and devout, but the same goes for truly having no faith. You can make that sound as derogatory as you want with mention of hell as the ultimate consequence for denying this benevolent God. What it boils down to is looking at things through the eyes of those who share different beliefs, understanding their direction, and being accepting of that.

kissthezombie wrote:Well you said you read the bible but,
did it do you any good, if you did it
with a careless mind. Ex: If i go
to church because I "have to"
what good does it do? None at all.
Rather than going to church because I want to.
And the only reason people obsess about the bible,
is because, people ask for proof, well there it is.
Right there. Then people ask that God present himself.
Well just think about how FAKE this world would be if
we HAD to SEE God and then after believe. That doesn't sound very faithful
to me. That's why religion isn't really about beliefs (in my human opinion)
It's more about having faith, and believing it without the
necessity of having to see God. And that's what makes
you a good catholic, christian, lutheran, methodist,
baptist, etc. You can know all the bible stories
in the bible. You can even memorise scripture.
But if you don't have faith, it counts for NOTHING.
And heaven is real. And unfortunately so is hell.
And if you don't care for any of them. Than I hope
you have some other theory to the after life because
being put in a dark hole in a coffin sounds really
horrible. And heaven isn't a "reward". God doesn't
give you a snack after you've been a"good boy"
Heaven is where you live for eternity. If you choose
to follow Christ. You could say "Ah, who is he, he hasn't done
anything for me." Nope! Wrong again. He got whipped
beaten, spit at , humilated, basckstabbed, and nail to a cross
all for you, me and everyone else. I don't know about you
but anybody who does that for me, deserves my
friendship, love, respect, and most importantly, my
faith. And to say it's all fiction, seems like just
about the most horriblist thing to say. And there is absolutely
no way I would ever compare the bible with twilight, though I am a huge
fan. Unlike the bible twilight is truly fiction. The bible, not so much.
As for me knowing more about atheist. Well my teacher was actually
atheist. But he was very cool. And he admitted that Jesus was a
great man, he also went to church, he listened to what I had
to say, and I listened to his theories. In the end, he was a very
awesome guy. But you ask me to try out and
ge to know where you are coming from. But how about
you try my beliefs. You have nothing to lose.
But I do. I know that by giving in to something else
won't do me any good. Trust me, I tried
living life without God.And let me just say I was lost.
nothing made sense and I was stuck and lonely.

I'm not asking you to try living without your God, I'm not even asking you to question His existence. Just read a work from someone more intelligent than I, someone better at conveying his ideas xD.

Part of this is Pascal's argument. Simply, believe because if you're right, heaven, if you're wrong, nothing. You essentially can't go wrong. The only thing that isn't considered is the time spent, the resources used, etc.

Your teacher does sound like a stellar guy, and like most atheists, I've gone through the bible once as both a Christian and an Atheist. I didn't go to church because I was forced to, I didn't feel as if I had gone enough at the time.

I've already tried your beliefs, and in the end, they certainly didn't work for me. I wouldn't say that you have anything to lose if your God is as forgiving as you say. I'm not asking you to give him up for a while, and go on a "break" like in a bad relationship, it's just a glimpse of the other side of things. Or you could watch Dawkins' documentary, "The Root Of All Evil?" He makes some valid points

Do you follow the Bible as the literal word, or more figurative word? If literal, do you favor faith or science when there's a conflict of interest, so to speak?

Jesus, provided he existed, seemed to be a kind, respectful man.

Get this:

Born on Decenmber 25th
Born of a Virgin
Birth accompanied by a star in the east
adored by 3 kings
teacher at age 12
baptized at 30
traveled with 12 disciples
performed miracles
known as "Lamb of God"/"The Light"
Crucified
Dead for 3 days
resurrected.

These are some points from the story of Horus. In Egypt. Three thousand years before Christ.